How to Work with Emerging Defense Responses to Trauma (Beyond the Fight/Flight/Freeze Model)
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with Pat Ogden, PhD;
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with Pat Ogden, PhD; Stephen Porges, PhD; Bessel van der Kolk, MD; Janina Fisher, PhD; Kathy Steele, MN, CS; Deb Dana, LCSW; Ruth Lanius, MD, PhD; Thema Bryant-Davis, PhD; Ruth Buczynski, PhD
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Thank u I ve so enjoyed hearing what I known experientially in comprehension that also helps changes the brain in learning and understanding intellectually … for myself with my own vagal nervous system tracking .. that as a survivor knows that until I feels safe within my body u can’t get to yr own knowing place intellectually in ordinating if yr alwats in collapse /fight/flight/freeze response appease .. which is why healing work(is to help me to see myself to nourish myself a value to yourself a coming HOME to one’s self) is so very important work for the person in knowing there own bodies working with there therapist thank u Dr Ruth …
Fantastic. Fantastic. You have finally put words and sound scientific understanding on things I have experienced in myself and seen in clients for years. You are consolidating my confidence to trust what I sense in my own nervous system as I work with clients, and you are opening up a whole new understanding, language and confidence in my own working style – role playing and non-traditional movement/voice/music work for healing in the somatic space. You are also reassuring me of how important this work is – because it can often feel lonely (I work for myself) so much colleague-connection cup can often run low. To connect to top level professionals like yourselves at nicabm who educate, and affirm the importance of this work plus the ripple effect it can have in families and work places, gives me a much needed boost to keep going. Finally – you help me to believe in something that is so important for me – our humanity. That these responses are adaptive and intelligent responses. You help me to be a leading voice in my own way, leading with curiosity and compassion, and piercing through the unnecessary stigmas and judgement/criticism that can so often and unfortunately drive the narrative for clients and prevent them from even starting their return to empowerment journey. Thank you for your support.
Angie, I was very moved reading what you wrote. I too wrote a comment from Aussie land! So it felt good to read yours. Warm regards, Suzette Misrachi (p.s. my area of work, found if you google my name, may connect with what you do).
wonderful detail and overall encompassing these three behaviours, love the neurological explanations, Having this kaleidoscope of therapist gives larger scope to our work. synchonicity with a needy patient. so it will be helpfull and I hace more tools to accompany her.
First always, should be thank you! Aye, not just to please and appease! These sessions are very well put together and inspiring.
One queue I hope to incorporate into my conscious response to clients is the aspect of Collapse-Submit or Dorsal Vagal as an “I don’t care” state. Sure there was no pain, why care to face this? But robotic obedience…and I am thinking, the opposite…automatic disobedience, may be a show of compliance, inside-out.
There are many people to appease in life however I choose to please myself. I feel someone to appease is someone who is a bully
Thanks for the session, I can relate to it particularly in speaking to my client call him Willy, who is appeasing an alcoholic in his home❗️❗️
She is currently poisoning herself with alcohol, refusing all help. & he feels appeasement is his answer I hoped to connect him to you….
I am going to use todays material to assist in the creation of daily tools to be used with those suffering from FND Functional Neurological Disorders. I lost 7 years of my life living in these states, and finally started IFS and SE in July 2019. I regained movement, communication, memory, and January 2021 my autonomous system and executive function came back online. I am a new learner, thinker, survivor and trauma coach. ONE GOAL: Daily tools to relieve dysregulation at the deepest levels of non-function.
Thank you SO much for this content. I have been out of commission since May 9, 2014. My communication, movement, and memory were gone. I regained one function at a time. They did not anticipate I would get better. I am OK not being OK! and so OK other times.
Cheers, Linda Hines
I found it very disheartening and disturbing that the program cut-off Dr. Thema Davis Bryant as soon as she started talking about how people from marginalized communities engage the “please and appease” response. Why did the program coordinators not think that this was vital information to include in the broadcast? I see clients from marginalized communities engage the please & appease response all the time, especially when dealing with those in positions of power and authority. How do experiences with racism, sexism, transphobia, and other intersectional oppressions influence marginalized clients to engage in please & appease responses towards those in positions of power? How do we help clients from marginalized backgrounds who engage these survival mechanisms in response to coping with unequal power dynamics and discrimination? I THINK this was what Dr. Thema was going to talk about before she was cut off.
This program is incomplete without addressing how trauma, power and oppression intersect and become embodied. It does not matter how somatically informed of a practitioner you are if you lack awareness of how experiences of racism, sexism, and other oppressions impact client’s survival responses and how to support them towards healing and liberation.
Hi Shalyn, thank you for your feedback.
We just want to let you know that Dr. Bryant-Davis’ full thoughts on working with the Please and Appease response as it relates to members of marginalized communities were included in the session – they come a couple minutes before the part you’re referencing.
We don’t typically post parts of the broadcast here, but we want to be sure you didn’t miss what she said. We agree with you – this is a critical idea.
Module 3: 00:51:24
Dr. Bryant-Davis: So W.E.B. Du Bois talked about something called double consciousness. And double consciousness is when black people have to learn what they think and what they want and learn what do white people want from me? And what do they think? In order to navigate in society, in some ways having to be bi-cultural, right? And so that shifting back and forth, it can be emotional labor. And while a piece of it is helpful in surviving or succeeding in predominantly white spaces, really having to be careful that it does not turn into erasure of the fullness of me is now, what do people want me to be? How do people want me to speak? How do white people want me to dress? How do they want me to contribute or not contribute and then lose sight of myself?
Thanks again for your feedback and for attending the broadcast.
Also, on the NICABM website are many more talks by Dr. Thema and others on the experiences of marginalized people groups. They are very informative. NICABM does a lot to support the needs of marginalized groups.
I work with African refugees, as well as chronic mentally ill such as schizophrenia. I have one particular refugee single mother who is very different. Most refugees keep their houses spotless, but this woman lays with her arm over her head in a chronic state of collapse. The interpreter met with her privately, and increased the problem by confronting her, telling her that she wasn’t acting like a mother and made her cry. This week I have learned ways to help her understand the problems with her behavior, and by using her own nervous system crawl out from the helplessness that helped her survive seeing so many people tortured, raped and killed, not just in the war zone of the Congo, but also in the refugee camp. thank you so much for this series!!
I wonder about the impact of psychiatric/chemical intervention on the therapist’s and client’s interpretation of what is happening in the nervous system and even with regards to recognition/distinguishing between various responses… Especially in multidisciplinary envolvement in a client’s treatment procedure. Thank you for availing latest findings and techniques with the broader public. It is much appreciated!!
Love your cutting edge working with trauma programs! Easy to integrate with my analytic training which doesn’t focus so much on the somatic responses to trauma.
Thank you that was very helpful to hear. I remember pleasing and appeasing as a client myself years ago. I really found it helpful when Deb said to check in with our own nervous system and what is going on for us as a way of helping us help the client gently feel safe to say what they are really thinking and feeling, and to disagree with us. Thank you!!!
Thank you! I found that session so helpful. I particularly appreciate the references to actual case work.
I missed the other modules but this was so interesting as I have case a
Study already – much appreciated
There were so many important points in today’s video. I would not know where to begin to explain how this helped and will continue to help. The majority of my clients are being treated for trauma. I got into traum work through EMDR but now am incorporating more modalities. Many clients came to mind throughout the presentation and I know that with each one I will tweak what I’ve been doing in different ways. It makes me want to explore certain theories further too.
I am going to use the information from this session by teaching the members of my PTSD group about collapse/submit and freeze/appease. And tell them these are survival skills. Then process this what the think and feel.
Lots of good information.
Thank you and I look forward to joining next week’s session.
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Thank you so much for the opportunity to participate and listen such new for me essential information. It will takes a time to me to comprehend it, after deeper studies of basis… Super exited by power of systematic deep observations, analysis and knowledge in this field.
Critical insights about the Please and Appease which will be incorporated into my practise immediately. As always your work is a blessing to the world. I am so grateful you have made this availabe to everyone. Thankyou
This has given me something new and substantial to bring to my client’s please and appease whole life experience. I had always referred to the notion of “neural programming,” never to a nervous system formation response being so fundamental to a persons’ “being.” Thank you.
Over three decades of working with clients (the majority female) in violent living situations, I learned from my interaction with them that each individual needed her own time line to first acknowledge the danger in her environment; second to believe and experience any capacity to protect self or children and voice this; third, to begin to envision self acting differently. What today’s discussion of poly vagal states explained in a new way to me is that each of my clients had developed a highly individualized defensive response to chronic trauma . As a result, each needed a tailored timetable and progression of newly experienced micromoments of choice in session to feel and integrate new cognitive and body awareness that then led to contemplating and planning to leave their danger filled living situation.
I am grateful to now have another detailed way to assess, understand, and develop strategies to use in these treatment situations. THANK. YOU !!!
Louisville, Kentucky
Thanks again for the valuable insights into these response patterns. I am a client who developed please and appraisal very young. My attempts to push back at this have, until very recently, have almost always led me into collapse, or the much more dangerous ‘fight’ response. I have therefore, for most of my life, been seen as a pleasant, go along guy who occasionally goes into towering rage, sometimes accompanied by extreme violence. My present therapist has helped me quite a bit to recognize the situations, physical and emotional responses, and ways to learn to say no.
Not long after I started working with him, I warned him that I might, and have in the past, try to ‘game’ him to both of our detriment. When he gets back from vacation I hope to discuss what I am learning in this course.
This was so useful and insightful. In one hour I learned a lot again, even after being trained in SE, Narm and CI. I have a deeper and more clear understanding now from how trauma can show up in relations and life. But especially in the client and the interaction in therapy. Thank you so much for that.
I also admire the sweet way attention was given in how we as good willing therapists can harm our clients by giving in to our longing to help when our clients are in this desperate cry for help state. I really love the way it was brought to our attention. I think it is really important.
Knowledge and recognition of all three dynamics give more refined tools to be with our clients. But at least for me, also to understand the dynamics in my own system. That is so helpful. It makes me more available for the client, and helps to attune even better to their needs.
Looking forward to the next session!
you have given the language to talk about the client’s experience and relate it to their experience to their trauma and thus move out of the trauma freeze to the self-directive method current handling of others. Thank you.
What kind of research has demonstrated this connection? What do you see as relevant? Do you have any references that could educate the public as to this being science based way of thinking about trauma? And coping that makes these connections…?
Read the therapists books. All the academics who talked in todays session have written extensively about their research findings. You can study their approaches and insights. It’s all out there in a book shop close to your postbox or a library.
The in depth discussions in this introductory series for treating trauma with these methods is helpful. The recognition of integrating the nervous system response is particularly applicable to treating war related trauma in addition to the domestic / relationship related incidents. Assisting patients to increase awareness and self regulate, potentially increases the sense of safety, and a return to feeling progressively more in control. This in turn begins to allow the patient to reduce incidents of anxiety and depressed mood.
As a short term crisis counselor and sexual assault responder I have clients who come to me disclosing trauma for the first time and perhaps disclosing and acknowledging abuse/assault to themselves for the first time. Because I support in a residential university I will be advocating for victims for 2-3yrs sometime 4. The different stages andt types of ways that the nervous system will engage and drive reactions is not often talked about. I immediately concluded that understanding and working with this knowledge will inform my interactions going forward.
Thank you so ver much for making this available.
This content is so rich and important. I’ve worked in the domestic violence movement for over a decade, there is much chatter about trauma-informed responses, but for that most part, that’s all it is. There is little recognition or acknowledgement of these three emerging trauma responses, yet they offer potential pathways to intervention with violence-involved families, and not just the survivors, but those who offend and, of course, their children. I feel hopeful for the future and will be applying these insights into my education and outreach efforts with providers in this area. I pray that this grows beyond the therapeutic delivery world into public policy, and child protective services domains too. Thank you!
Capacity building for organizations working with marginalized communities need education on dissociation. Looking forward to seeing the studies and work done with holocaust groups on understanding, processing and healing from the trauma (1st hand and generationally) being done w/POCs, especially Black folks in USA. Especially b/c “oppressor”/the person othering Blacks is a system that continues. Grateful for Dr. Bryant-Davis being part of the panel b/c her insight and understanding is focused on POC/marginalized folks as opposed to most focus on Euro-americans. USA cannot heal & unite w/out dealing w/PTSD: post-traumatic slave syndrome, as coined by Dr. Degruy. And, all USA citizens suffer from such – the descendants of the enslaved and the descendants of the enslavers. Simply put, another insighful, thought-provoking session. Thank you!
all females in the U.S. are potential victims of exploitation from a patriarchal society. POC women bear a double burden.
It’s good to have the language around the ventral vagal response. I had a client today who was insisting loudly that she was NOT going to take the job her VP had proposed for her (protesting too much), but then also going into a collapsed state when she assumed that he would not listen to her protests. We talked about being able to say an authentic, boundaried, calm, “No, that’s not OK with me. Here are the options are OK.” I wonder if knowing about the language around the ventral vagal way of saying no would have been helpful for her.
Thank you for sharing Freely with those of us who no longer have the financial situation to participate in the gold costly version. Though we see for Free we still improve our ability to positively impact the people around us significantly. We Freeloaders non gold ones are additional ripples you create in the fabric of homan consciousness n COMMUNITY. … and extend the work you do in ways you may never have thought would be happening …mysterious synergies ….even brings to mind the image of the butterfly effect lol….
God bless you all ✝️🙏💖 T
Thank you NICABM for sharing your expertise with us… Applying all I learn to assisting Military, Law Enforcement & Emergency Service Families, especially those of Fallen Heroes.
Army Gold 🌟 Sister & LE Fallen Hero Granddaughter
Practice: How does nervous system say ‘no’ from each of 3 states. Dorsal, then sympatetic, then balanced calm Ventral.
How to say Yes from ventral.
Attach/cry for Help; Collapse/Submit and Please/appease are sophicated defence response to trauma environments.
Activate the sympathetic nervous system to help person stand up for themselves in the world.
Many many Thanks and GRATITUDE.
This particular session has provided me fantastic ways for assisting clients who used to come to the office because of suffering from severe doses of trauma where they have been abused for longer periods of their lives. Therefore, their survivor mode has knocked them out of ways to protect themselves and their children. Thanks very much for your kindness and generosity sharing this golden information with us!
It appears the Please/Appease response can be an intergenerational learning and not just from a “dangerous” home environment. I am studying to obtain a degree in Indigenous Peoples Law and will apply the learning here. In addition I will use it with my Somatic Therapy practice. Thank you
Thank you for this insight Noreen.
I had been thinking the same thought when encountering your comment. I believe I have read that it can take up to 7 generations to heal the trauma that is passed down on genes which are really interesting given indigenous culture thinks and cares for the environment and culture in terms of seven generations…It is my belief that this kind of work is part of the powerful antidote which changes that dynamic and can help heal everyone heal faster. It is why what Dr. Ruth Buzinski says at the end is so powerful. Thank you for posting.
I love the format of these masterclasses – clear and concise. Very grateful for this opportunity, thank you.
Fantastic webinar…So impressed with the accuracy and clarity of navigating through these less detectable survival responses… Best training I’ve taken yet, thank you so much!
Hi,
Today’s session has me thinking. I have a client who keeps going back to complete collapse, and we called it treatment resistant depression until now. In between she has short times when she goes to completely normal, smiling fun person. The differences are Stark and sudden.
When she is in collapse she doesn’t come in for in person session, we speak by phone. I know, from a message her sister (who brought her in to her first session) left, that this client endured trauma in her childhood. Client has never mentioned anything, it might not be a conscious memory.
I will try some exercises with her that were suggested by Deb and Pat.
thanks, your kindness has a ripple effect,
C Gross
Today’s takeaway is that I as a white Scandinavian woman would like the experience of having an African-American therapist. Why? To iron out the wrinkles of thinking that we are so different. When it boils down to it, deep down, I think we are very much alike.
Hm. I am a white cis-woman, and when I read your comment, I felt it in my nervous system, that my body was not ok with it. It feels as if you are having some sort of defensive response, and I invite you to reflect on “why might I want to believe that we have no differences?” While of course there are ways in which all humans are “very much alike” I would encourage you to stay curious about what the differences are, and what those who have a different cultural background have to teach you. Tune in to what cultural norms inform your thinking. Thank you for this opportunity for me to do the same.
Interesting observation!
I think what has stood out to me the most is the idea of creating ‘scenarios’ in the counselling room whereby a client can begin to experience alternative strategies within their life situations – thereby building new neural pathways over a period of time. I also liked the use of trying out the word ‘no’ in the different parts of the nervous system, and getting the client to experience ‘no’ within their ventral vagal body response. I also loved how Pat explained about putting in boundaries in a loving way so as not to trigger a frantic pushing forward by the client.
This is top-notch information, getting into nuances that will take some time to put to use. I am grateful for all the deep sea diving you do to educate us all about something so pervasive and critical!
This was a very good session. I learned so much and so appreciate the strategies that were provided. The ideas seem as they will be very helpful for a variety of presenting problems.
Very interesting forms of leading with trauma. I like to work with breathing techniques.
Working with people who experience developmental disabilities for 50 years I see them as one of the most marginalized and traumatized group of people. I’ve always had issues with discrete trial and other behavioral approaches and now have a term to describe it. It is conditioned please and appease. The goal is compliance and submission.
I like the idea of tuning into the nervous system and will encourage clients to do that and name the response. This is a skill that can be reinforced in sessions. This will be useful for clients who are military members and who often collapse at the sound of a car backfiring or a fire siren.
I will try to get some support for my own please/appease responses through this important nervous system/polyvagal somatic sensing approach in order to be able to help others eventually.
I enjoyed learning more about how to work with clients with trauma. As a school nurse, I work with many students that come from trauma backgrounds so I know if will be useful to have greater awareness. Personally I have experienced trauma, as well so it has given me more self-awareness on issues I need to work through so that I can be more in-tune with times that I do these different behaviors. Thanks so much!
What an insightful and truly empowering session. I’m working with an ”attach/cry for help” client right now and this has given me so many practical tools to work with. Thank you very much everyone.
Thanks this was very interesting and helpful!! I need to learn more😀
This has been very helpful! Very enlightening. Thank you!
I have a 45 year old female client who has been manipulated all her life, into her adult life, by her overly-involved parents. She is a perfect picture of the Please/Appease response. I am going to approach her with some of these ideas. WE have really good rapport built, so I believe this could be helpful in helping her to set appropriate boundaries.
As Janine says, this is the least understood defense – Ruth named it HYPO – Yes, finally Hypo is getting recognized.
Interesting to hear a psychiatrist “Cristal, or Christal” has written a book about this – I will look for it.
From helpness to engage, finding ways to start the Sympathetic system, is important.
Also interesting to hear Deb doing role-plays with her client, Saying No from Sympathetic, from Dorsal and finally from Ventral – and then adding to saying Yes also. great of course.
Also interesting to hear Thema tell how black people had to (many times) to find out how white people wanted them to act (as a protection to be killed) – great strategy. It is a little like whats happening in Afganistan right now, and in Hong Kong and Belarus, but basically in all countries where there is not recognition of Right to speach (and no fear of being persecuted). So thank you Thema.
And thanks for Deb saying we as Therapists need to monitor our own nervous system (body reactions) to tells us if “something is not ok” – a skill that is also important for all clients.
Finally Debs ex. with a client where her partner had “dangerous behavior”, and it took 6-9 months to find a new strategy to “get out” of that relation. Great and it also shows how long time it can take.
So I will pay even more attention to these above insights – but also to Ruths final words, that we are treating the whole world, via client, partner, family, community, country, world. Thanks