How to Work with Emerging Defense Responses to Trauma (Beyond the Fight/Flight/Freeze Model)
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with Pat Ogden, PhD;
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with Pat Ogden, PhD; Stephen Porges, PhD; Bessel van der Kolk, MD; Janina Fisher, PhD; Kathy Steele, MN, CS; Deb Dana, LCSW; Ruth Lanius, MD, PhD; Thema Bryant-Davis, PhD; Ruth Buczynski, PhD
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Again, many thanks for the insights and advice about the nuances of trauma responses. I notice and find it interesting that some people show mixtures of presentations, not just one and seemingly dependent on the situation.
Thank you for the sessions over last few days, todays session brought up a lot for me especially after a session I had today with a client where I am noticing many of what is being spoken about.
After todays webinar I get the sense that need to learn more and more and at what point does when decide wether they ( I) am creating more harm than benefit when in a session with a client? There is just so much , I wonder do I take time off to gain more and more knowledge or do I continue to work with my clients and know that I am learning.
When does one know ?
Thank you
Does Double consciousness also apply in cases of neurodiversity? I was thinking a lot about masking during this portion of the conversation
I wondered the same thing. That neurodivergent people can be very attuned to the social expectations of those around them in order to mask as well as possible. I know this can lead to significant anxiety. Would it be considered a please/appease response if it’s not also considered trauma? I’d be curious what the research shows about the sympathetic nervous symptoms of people with neurodivergence who mask very well.
I’m so grateful for this free program! I am a teacher, and I face many different situations in my students’ lives. They find refuge in me, and I try to guide them as responsibly as possible. These sessions help me to help them. I am forever grateful for your very, very kind human work!! ❤️
So amazing to see teachers take this course! You are an inspiration!
Thank you so much for sharing this webinar with its wisdom so generously. I agree that we can change history through the work we do and need to start by applying what we learn to our own practice. Thank you for destigmatising shame and trauma and for giving us language and tools to work with them. This series is of a high standard and is so interesting, relatable and accessible. So grateful.
Kind regards,
Dr Margot Sennett Freedman, psychologist, South Africa
The best session so far!
I just better my understandment of how to identify Please & Appease.
Thanks you so much for the free courses!
Amazing session today as well! A lot to process, first, for myself before I can help others. Thank you to everyone involved.
Great presentation! Thanks. How does Fawning fit in and why did we not get any examples of male clients? Suzette Misrachi, author of research, “Lives unseen: unacknowledged trauma of non-disordered, competent Adult Children Of Parents with a Severe Mental Illness”. I will look out for signs covered in this module for sure!
Had an amazing ‘break-thru’ today, with a client that is a ‘father’ survived a holocaust. All his children were murdered. He feels a tremendous sense of responsibility and regret for the horrible tragedy he and his wife survived. His mind rehearses, tossing around three basic ideas. His mind, around and around, these ideas, all day. The first idea (I like to name ‘friend’ one) is that of total and and complete ‘responsibility’. He felt that he was 100 percent responsible for the murder of his children and that he was a terrible father, for not protecting them. Next friend is named ‘regret’. If he wasn’t thinking he was responsible, he thinks of how he regretted the millions of decisions mad, leading up to the death of his children. Perhaps if he decided to do something sooner, he may of prevented the killing of his children. And the third friend is the summation of ‘responsibility’ and ‘regret’, for the parent, naming him, ‘shame’. Shame for being a ‘father’ a ‘parent’ of children that are murdered. How could he not help them? His nervous system was completely ‘out of whack’. He has broken out in red rashes over his body. He wanted desperately to ‘flee’ and he could not flee. Nor could he stay in the ‘dorsel’ position long, lest one of his friends visit, ie. ‘responsibility as parent’, ‘regret’ or ‘shame’. With listening to today’s class, I believe I can help this man.
The friends can stay as long as he wants them there, but by ‘choice’ only. Perhaps at times it is okay to relish oneself with thoughts of ‘responsibility’ both in the past, but add the present, then future? Again, a choice while practicing in therapy sessions, what we learned today when using words such as ‘no’ in a ‘dorsel state; again, in a ‘sympathetic state’ and ‘vegal state’. Recognizing thoughts leading to the ‘shame’, leading to the autonomic responses his nervous system cannot deny, rashes on 50 percent (his torso) of his body. Further ‘shame’ in social situations and depression persists into states of collapse.
Very excited to find how I can help this ‘parent’ with the class tomorrow dealing with ‘shame’ in the trauma experience of my client.
Thank you for the class and the enlightenment today.
Respectfully,
Josie Ferraris
Wonderful session, really appreciated the learnings on please/appease and how can impact on the therapeutic relationship, particularly when working with minority cultures. Has helped to give me more knowledge and approaches to use with some clients. Have increased awareness to look out for signs covered in this module.
There was mention of supporting practitioners who are unable to afford the course. How may I access this financial support?
Same.
Me too!
Today’s topic was really very useful to help me identify some mistakes with my clients. For example when they wanted to please me, or when they feel helpless, and I didn’t know how to handle it. I hope from now on to be more aware of these signs, points, comments that they are making during the sessions.
Really appreciate a new level of understanding a long term client with complex trauma, who moves between all of these defense responses. I feel this can support my encouragement of her towards more self understanding and compassion. Many thanks
I work with kids and I have found these lessons very helpful in dealing with a parent who is reacting out of trauma and not being safe. I feel I am more understanding of their vagal state and I can be more patient, while trying to present myself as not too helpful and accommodating but not impatient and angry either (its hard)
The session helped me become so much more aware of how our nervous system responds to traumatic events. This session will help me with my volunteer mental health care and work that I do within my community. It has already benefited me in that as a support person and someone who also needs support become very aware of how our nervous system is affected by others nervous systems. With this I can moderate my reactions.
Thank you for this opportunity because it has helped me gain self confidence to carry out the message of hope to help others heal..
Sheila West
Retired RN BSN
I’m a master’s level board certified music therapist. I was validated to continue to incorporate the natural components of music to support my clients’ nervous systems. More specifically, how rhythm can be a self-regulating tool that concomitantly can enable co-regulation. I also really appreciated the strategy on how to lovingly maintain boundaries while also seeing the need in front of me. Sometimes the most compassionate thing we can do is uphold boundaries. And finally, I really appreciated hearing the need for self-compassion when we are experiencing a challenging session with a client.
This is so enriching and helpful. I really love learning about the mechanisms of our nervous system, our biology. Very fascinating! As a Philosopher and executive coach, I am leaving it to the experts/practitioners to help clients. Nevertheless, for my own practice it is helpful to know about specific cues so I don’t miss out on them. And also to become more mindful of my own nervous system in my work.
As a long-term childhood trauma survivor, I feel very lucky to have discovered these sessions on Tuesday. I have learnt so much from all of the speakers.
A warmhearted thank you!
i just want to say thank you, today brought so much clarity into understanding a behaviour of a loved one. Question would be when all of the 3 responses are strongly embeded, it should be worked on them paralel or separate ?
The strategies andcresponses discussed by Deb Dana are very complex standards sophisticated. Clients have to learn new beglhaviors. Perhaps getting the Gold Pkg will demonstrate or teach ways or methods. clients might fear they risk a lot by moving out of Please-appease or Collapse-submit. They might not have ever experienced those states. I am thinking of clients served in a charitable organization that serves homeless young women with young children.
hi, I related to your comments as I also work with homeless women and children in shelters in another major U.S. city. I have found the work of Dr. Stephen Porges and clinical therapist Deb Dana especially practical and applicable to understand and assist the client base. I have studied the work of Stephen Porges and Deb Dana, who works with S. Porges. She teaches therapists practical applications for the research findings of Dr. Porges. Some of their longer sessions are available through NICABM.
I work with immigrant clients from countries where “please and appease” is standard cultural behavior, among other passive adaptations that are considered normal in their cultures but dysfunctional in the U.S. If I have an interpretor or translator present in intake sessions, then we can get at their core problems and build trust.
I especially liked this NICABM session because the client strategies described are NOT fir dealing with psychiatric symptoms, but rather for recognizing the coping strategies and social adaptations of marginalized people groups trying to cope with overly-complex social and economic systems unfamiliar to them.
Thanks for these lectures, so informative.
Today the please and apeace stood out for me. Not a new idea, but a new way of looking at it, not just a learned behaviour, but a reaction in the nervous system. No wonder it is so hard for people (not just clients) to change it, even though they know cognitively that it gets them nowhere.
Thank you for making it. It is really important for therapists to know how do really help victims. Freeze response and all these three more, have been silenced many times and undiagnosed, because of not knowing how to help with them. Again, awareness is making a difference. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Thanks! The question “When did the please and appeace started” brings me the most for myself.
For my worksituation, the idea that my own nervous system may react, was the most revealing.
Hearing all therapists, brought to my mind several clients and insight in their processes with other therapists.
Very worthwhile!
Thanks from the Netherlands!
Enriched my knowledge enormously.
I would usually get so confused with please and appease mechanism. Now I know how important it is to identify and name it. Also help client racognize where he applies this defense response and help him learn new strategies.
Thank you! That was amazing. Understanding the appease response further is really helpful with clients that have that other aspect of survival. With deep appreciation.
Will use the techniques with 3 clients that I have currently. Each presenter identified specific examples that fit!
Checking my own nervous system is something I can feel – but now I want to try identifying that in session. I will also try the role plays with my colleague.
Thanks
This was helpful in cementing some of the principles and traits we work with in Somatic Experiencing. I’m not a psychotherapist, but an SEP and it was great to get this perspective. Thank you.
I learned I can empower clients to meet their own needs instead of relying on others to fix it for them.
Does anyone have the worksheet for session 2? I just noticed there were worksheets for each day.
Following, as well.
Hello, thank you so much for your guidance and the new perspective you share to help us understand the delicate work we do. For me today, what help me the most were two lines of guidance related to boundaries.
The explanation Janina Fisher gave on the importance of maintaining clear boundaries while also showing warmth and empathy for our clients who’s adaptation strategy to trauma is “Attach-Cry for help”, was really useful. When faced with clients reverting spontaneouly to this strategy my spontaneous response was to be there for the patient but often times to let down a bit my boundaries to show “the needy child part” of my client that he/she was not alone. I see now that this is not helpful in empowering my clilent to learn to take care of herself/himself nor to learn to regulate the reactivation of past traumatic experiences. I really appreciated the modeling on how to engage boundaries muscles while with the tone of voice and facial expression being there warmly for our patients.
The second guidance that really touched base with me was when Dr Thema Bryant-Davis explained how important it was to take care of nourishing our own life as individuals distinct from our therapeutic role if we wanted to be able to detect the “Please and apease strategy”. We choose a helping career for a reason. We have our own history, and it can be quite easy to fall into the “Me later trapp” when we see all the needs for help. For me, this explanation was helpful in giving myself the authorization to maintain a balanced life even when confronted to so much demands in the helping profession.
Thanks a lot, see you tomorrow,
Dre Diane Dulude, psychologist for children, families, and couples
Canada
I will use the boundary work described by J Fisher and connect with my client who is in a attach/cry state. I will also apply some of the use of saying NO from the 3 levels of activation as explained by Deb Danna. This presentation is so clear, organized and focused. The format itself is empowering and easy to follow. I have many clients who suffer from trauma and the analysis of the defense patterns is right on target. I am so pleased to be part of this event.
I must say it was an eye opening session. I have come to the realisation that to some degree many children living with very violent parents result to Please/ Appease. But once they become of age and can defend themselves result to Fight or Flight modes of survival. Is this the case? And if this is the case, do such individuals still need therapy?
Hello all,
Thank you for this webinar series, it is very helpful.
Today my biggest take away is when the therapist shows the client how to work through collapsed dorsal vagal or sympathetic states using themselves reacting in a way they would want the client to learn how.
Also how Pat Ogden helps a client by use of a pillow to teach them how to say no to something unwanted or to put a boundary.
I had a client who was in a physically abusive marriage and had 2 kids to tend to while trying not to trigger her husband. I was using the traffic light metaphor to explain the polyvagal states in terms of red light (DVC), yellow light (SNS) and green light (VVC) and the various combinations. She described her living situation as a miserable “polyvagal grey zone” – What she was talking about was the Please & Appease response. Excellent module. The best one yet. Really useful breakdown of the more subtle and complex states, and great strategies that I will definitely use in my practice. Thank you!
It was very inspiring and insightful. I now can identify more clients, especially in the cry for help trauma response and understand how my own nervous system get activated by this and how to address and treat this in a more constructive, non harming way.
This work is so important. I’m someone who is still recovering from an abusive relationship. During those six years, I desperately sought help from 7 different therapists — all who were not trained in any of this. This was not irrelavent–I believe this caused further damage to my nervous system. I appreciate those who are here and are looking for ways to help others in similar situations. I made a vow that I would become the therapist I so desperately needed myself. This feels like hope.
Hi Susan, I really appreciate your comment and my own experience of initial support for trauma was not helpful either. It definitely prolonged the process of healing. Ali
Hi,
thanks for the wonderful sessions. At the end of this one, I kept wondering why are some people who absolutely deny the please and appease response, I mean they look that they are trying to create the exact opposite behaviour. I understand that this type of resistance can help keep the person’s integrity but the price many times is to be absolutely exhausted, because this process of fight can be goin on for years, if not decades. How is possible to make them to be in a kind of middle point, so they can keep their values and integrity, but not waste so much energy in the process, maybe even all their vital energy?
I hope I was clear (English is not my mother tongue).
Thanks. Have a wonderful day,
I currently have a client in a appease response mode. I love how the speaker suggested raising questions to lead to higher self awareness around behaviors and choices. Will be utilizing such in our next session
I am a Neurologist female and have seen female survivors of abuse who would never go to a psychologist out of fear and only trust doctors. I do now understand much better why they are frozen stuck etc understanding the immens function of the sympathetic and vagal systems
thank you
Thank you. These sessions have been extremely informative and have driven my interest in learning more about polyvagal theory. I think I can be on the lookout more for these survival tactics with my clients and have different ways of intervening and helping them finding different ways to respond so their trauma doesn’t continue to run their lives.
My biggest takeaway from Module 3 is, how in all 3 states, to keep myself separate and grounded as a coach. Also, how to distinguish the fine lines between helping and feeding into their trauma response.
I found the session to be quite informative, lots to reflect on, thank you
Responding to another person’s trauma response takes a LOT of practice!
I learned so much yesterday and today. Thank you!!
This session gave me a different perspective on my times with difficult teenage children. I had no idea about boundaries then, nor how to set them with one daughter especially, who challenged and imposed her will on her 2 sisters. I have beat myself up for years for not handling the situation better since she still has issues today with a lack of emotional intelligence and patterns of narcissism.
I now see Collapse/Submit response could have been the cause of my many years of depression and insomnia. In a sense, I was out of control and could not set boundaries for myself or others. However, I have always perceived myself as a commando-fighting survivor due to the womb trauma of being the sole survivor of a triplet pregnancy. After years of CBT therapy with a skilled psychiatrist, I reached the end of her capabilities, and she referred me to a somatic psychotherapist. That was the missing link – I was very disembodied, so it was a long road to begin to feel and work with my body. From there we explored trauma-holding patterns, and I live a life of freedom today. Very rarely do I feel the gravitational pull of depression.
While the idea of Collapse is outside my paradigm as a survivor, I can now see that it was a coping mechanism with factors over which I had no control to deal with, through the strength of my will. Perhaps a missing link to increasing my self-compassion.
Thank you for sharing your story. I can relate and congratulate you on your strength and persistence! You are modeling to your children how to heal and be resilient alongside being compassionate. Keep going!
I believe collapse/submit has often been my response to a highly reactive, abusive daughter from the time she was about 14. (Actually, to this day, many years later. Distance and boundaries exist now, and I’m still vulnerable.) I too have beat myself up a lot. I have suffered with depression (sometimes immobilizing) for much of my life. I have a massive amount of cptsd from early childhood on to heal from. I’m currently working with a trauma-informed therapist for somatic and talk therapy. Early stages still. To read that you “live a life of freedom today” and “rarely… feel the gravitational pull of depression” suggests that that may be possible for me. (I need to believe.) Thank you for sharing.
thank you,
I am a survivor of with a chronic dystemic disorder who has survived to many situation to count.
I had no words for how I was behaving.
I have spent decades seeking those words.
I am a please appease response person.
it has kept me alive over decades of traumatic experiences.
I am no long living in trauma but the response is still the same…causing me to create relationships where this pattern can play out.
I will now move forward and have healthier genuine relationships, as well as seek a counselor who can assist me with this.
I am no longer a victim. And I can’t wait til next week to deal with shame.
I hold a full time job working with people in fight or flight mode, I work in early A&D recovery program.
I could only take them as far as I have gone.
This is amazing info.
Role playing responses from different parts of the polyvagal ladder – so clients can practice and feel ventral vagal.
Thank you. Another great workshop.
Fantastic. I will be working with my clients to experientially practice/roleplay what it feels to say ‘no’ from a sympathetic versus a dorsal shutdown focus etc. Thank you so much ! Noel
Wish they had taught at least have of these in Graduate schools… wow.
Thank you! It was another wonderful class, but hearing dr. Lanius’ explanation of dorsal vagal shutdown was a powerful aha moment for me. It explained the powerful effect I observed with myself and clients of letting go of everything for a minute, putting one’s attention into the body’s contact with the back the chair/couch and just breathing into it. Well, and of course there is shavasana… So, could we think that the beneficial effect of feeling into the back of the body is connected with some sort of restoration in the dorsal vagal?
I plan to use the question: “When did you learn that expressing your needs was dangerous?”. I have several clients who are in overwhelming situations and who see ignoring their needs as a virtue, I have been trying to come up with a way to challenge that belief without being judgmental, and this might be the answer I am looking for.
I also want to try practicing saying no with clients, like the example of saying no to broccoli, and moving the pillow that represents broccoli away as a way of learning to engage the sympathetic nervous system in standing up for oneself.