How to Work with Emerging Defense Responses to Trauma (Beyond the Fight/Flight/Freeze Model)
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with Pat Ogden, PhD;
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with Pat Ogden, PhD; Stephen Porges, PhD; Bessel van der Kolk, MD; Janina Fisher, PhD; Kathy Steele, MN, CS; Deb Dana, LCSW; Ruth Lanius, MD, PhD; Thema Bryant-Davis, PhD; Ruth Buczynski, PhD
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Christine
That first attempt at commenting did not work so well! Anyway, really looking forward to working with a colleague to trial Deb Dana’s suggestions of having different levels of nervous system say no, and so forth. Also the pieces to promote my own awareness and care of my own nervous system as a clinician. Many good pieces of information to digest further. Thank you for this wonderful opportunity.
I love the phrase,”My nervous system feels like we are not on the road together rather than what I generally say to disembodied clients, “I can’t feel you in the room.” This seems much gentler and affirming. I tend to rescue and will watch myself the next time I am with an Attach/Cry for Help client. It was interesting to learn that this cry is about survival and NOT soothing. I will use the phrase,”Can that part of you feel safe with me? Also, the Question, how does your CNS say “No?” was fascinating. This was mind-bending and a wonderful course. Thanks.
I am drawn, as a teacher, to the enhanced understanding of the pupils I teach, self regulation and co regulation and finding the right balance, but also an affirmation about how in every meaningful interaction, we are contributing to social change and transformation.
Kath, Halifax, UK
This gives me incentive to be more mindful of my own nervous system’s state so as to be more effective in engaging with my clients. The webinar also gave me guidance as to how to do that. It gives me therefore more incentive to practice my own personal mindfulness outside sessions.
I work outside with some clients and notice my NS in response to the outdoors as well as the client material however this can be a distracting element. I will work specifically with one client who displays all 3 defense systems described and will work on each one carefully using some of the strategies – particularly the please/appease which happens in our relationship. Thank you very much for this webinar
As a Violence Prevention, Personal Protection and Yoga Teacher who takes a Trauma Informed approach to all my classes this Master Class has been amazing and given me even more knowledge and tools so I can be an even better teacher to my students, many who have trauma (whether disclosed or not, what I teach attracts many traumatized individuals). I also hold train the trainer programs where I teach self defense and yoga teachers how to take trauma informed approaches and methods to their classes so they can create safe, predictable and trusting environments for their students and facilitate the road to further healing and empowerment. I am so happy I found this course! THANK YOU!
Pamela Armitage
http://www.studyofviolence.com
The possible mis diagnosis of Attached Cry for Help as BPD…
Reminded me greatly of an old client that was given diagnosis BPD & i wondered at the time of the connection to complex trauma being missed prevously..just realky made me think ????what if &if only I had the time back with this client..
Thanks again all for sharing you expertise &time.
Regards
Trish Curtis Ireland.
Thank you SO much! I have a client in chronic depression, and I believe that there is a strong likelihood of a Hx of early childhood trauma. I have begun to offer my clients experiences with the fundamentals of qigong, taijichuan, and yoga, as a way to safely activate Sympathetic responsiveness, and to gain an embodied sense of full presence within themselves. This is going very well with those who have begun this work. My chronically depressed cl has exhibited collapse/shut-down in relation to all offers of somatics or art, yet has recently begun to express openness and willingness. I am hoping that by introducing the fundamentals of qigong, she may begin to feel more internally resourced, safe, and empowered, and then be willing to take baby steps with other strategies.
Thank you for the absolutely brilliant session and deeper insight into the interventions for specific cases. My highlight were
1. the boundary muscles in combination with the warm eyes and voice,
2. the aligning of the spine and small defensive movements as a first step
3. the immediate stop and check of both nervous systems if some discomfort shows up
Thank you so much, this helps with nutrition counseling, where there is a lot of “please and appease” response to dysfunctional family situations, but also collapse mistaken for chronic depression
Absolutely wonderful, the most useful session yet. I have one woman I work with, so profoundly abused as a child at home, school and church – so much of what I have learned today will help me to help her. Especially with the comply and appease response. I have been aware of this (I picked it up quickly because it has been my own trauma responses) but now I feel far more equipped to be constructive and helpful in working with this.
Very well done ! Informative, concrete and wonderfuly connected to the whole being. Thank you very much !I learned a lot !
I will use it for myself first for sure….
Ive just completed a psychoanalytic training in London. what struck me was that these ideas and ways of working are so similar it just using a different language . I really enjoyed the lectures
I loved the discussion of practicing physical actions to open up routes out of the DorsalVagal state. I teach TaiChi and have been seeking better language to explain why the well-meaning (but ill-informed) cliches around “relax, soft, slow” are not only philosophically incomplete but also can be problematic physiologically! Great content!
Hi Richard – I have studied qigong, taijichuan, and pakuachang since the early 80’s, and have received permission from my last sifu to teach beginning qigong. I really appreciate your comment about well-meaning, but ill-informed cliches. Thank you!
Hi Pamela! That is wonderful to hear! Your use of the proper terminology suggests that you are beyond the cliches, and I appreciate THAT big time! I have been finding many great connections to taijiquan and physical yoga practices in these talks, and it is so exciting to understand both how these practices are inherently helpful in healing, as well as seeing ways to more effectively target the teaching to be helpful in healing!
Richard Johnson, You sound advanced in your understanding of these connections-and motivated to “more effectively target the teaching to be helpful in healing.”
Where in Minneapolis are you teaching? (if you’d care to post)
I love the wording of “mapping the nervous system/responses”. This type of trauma responses detective work, for someone who cannot safely engage with their emotional responses, may just allow them engage at a safe level, slightly removed from the nervous system activated responses
Thank you, I look forward to applying some of this expertise in practice in particular the spotting the different ways please and appease presents in clients.
This was very insightful, the more I am learning about polyvagal theory the more I want to know. Trauma therapy is a very complex need and practicing with a colleague to build proficiency in treatment is another take away from this video.
I am actually going to apply this not only in my work but in my home, with my kids and in my intimate partner relationships because even though we are thriving for the most part, these trauma responses are with us from previous chapters in life and can be refined into higher skills for even more peaceful, joyful living! Please and appease, attach cry for help and collapse submit are like me, my son, my daughter, we got em all. How wonderful to take this healing forward on a daily basis! Thank you!!!
Beyond fight flight freeze
Beyond what you do
Who you are and how you be is as important as what you know and what you do!
I’m thinking about the similarities between please and appease and masking in neurodiverse individuals and wondering if this is the same survival strategy at play? I am not a therapist but joining these sessions as a parent of a traumatized PDA ASD child. Thanks you.
I love the wording of “mapping the nervous system/responses”. This type of trauma responses detective work, for someone who cannot safely engage with their emotional responses, may just allow them engage at a safe level, slightly removed from the nervous system activated responses.
Thankyou for another useful Webinar. I am glad I tuned in. So right, we can make a difference in one person’s life and that can lead to bigger change. Being aware of our own NS and sharing that with clients as and when appropriate makes sense. Emotional attunment with clients is so imp. I have encountered some please and appease clients in my own work and it make sense when we think of it as a safety mechanism for them.
I plan to help foster carers identify these other three states as well as the fight, flight, freeze states when assessing children’s behaviour.
Thanks very much
Yvonne..social work trainer
Fantastic! I have worked in a children’s home for severely traumatised children in the UK and this same cohort could really benefit from this approach. I wish you all success in your endevours.
Thank you for very useful webinar! Really motivated me to track my NS more and to stop in the session when I feel it. Great example with women in dangereous/abusive home and practicing situations and engaging NS.
Very good advice on using role play and also somatic methods. ?? Thank you.
Great,useful stuff.
Encouragement and how tos to honor what Dr Didier told me years ago in grad school
“Tune in to your own physical feelings when you are with clients. It is an enormous diagnostic tool!”
Also I love the language of objectifying the nervous system response (thereby separating it from traits and personality)
Concur as my Psychoanalyst Supervisor trained to keep” checking In”
with my own emotional/Psychological response and states and question or ask if patient is also feeling that.Better understanding in session.
Possibility of coregulation ,Rt brain to Rt brain, and Self regulation happens
Thankyou for another brilliant Webinar. I feel I will apply much to not only my clients but myself a s practitioner. Continuing to work with the importance of talking to, recognsing and being aware of my own NS.Ensuring I am nourished enough to be able to be emotionally attuned and containing for my clients. I love the sense of engaging my core boundaries to assist keeping boundaries with my client.
I will use the ideas of noticing out loud changes or mismatches I feel in my own NS and share those with my clients and explore when they feel safe enough in their body, more fully with my clients where some of their own defense strategies may come from. I like the idea of asking the client what words fit or suit their own nervous system. Notice it and say it.
Ditto to your response. This is exactly my thought too. Thank you !
This session was really useful for me as someone who grew up in an abusive home – I understand more now how I and each of my siblings used these different responses to survive Thelma Bryant Davis’ explanations about how please and appease is also relevant in relation to collective issues such as racism was particularly helpful as my long term foster sister is black and we lived in a very white village. And the sibling who used/uses the collapse and submit strategy is also the one who has had the most difficulties with their own children.
I will add a few more books to my must read list! And maybe to my Xmas present list too …
I like your thoughts!Thanks for sharing
This!
My twin and I witnessed my Dad die of a heart attack When we were four. When my nephew was 4, my sister died of a medical accident with him present.
Today has given me a lot to ponder professionally and personally..I appreciate your bravery in sharing your experience.
Best wishes to you and your family!
Jane
I found Deb Dana’s suggestion of paying attention to one’s own nervous system response and using that as a tool to share with clients an interesting strategy. I also think Pat Ogden’s work with posture has lots of potential. Janina’s emphasis on conveying warmth as well as retaining boundaries is worth remembering and practising – she seems so good at that. I also thought that Thema Bryant-Davis made a vital contribution regarding oppressed minority groups, the please-appease response and self-erasure.
Fascinating stuff!!! Thanks so much. The three emerging defense responses exploration helps to better understand some of my clientes behaviours. I was, however, left with some questions too.
Can a person/client present more than one of these responses at different times? For example: collapse and please and appease? Or how to differentiate between the obedient estate that comes with collapse/submit, and please and appease?
I have two clients who were repeatedly sexually abused as children, and that for a long time by all accounts both used to exhibit the please and appease response … until one day they shifted to violence. Nowadays, they both report periods of please and appease and periods of violence. How to explain that?
This webinar gave some valuable tips about how to engage client’s in an embodied way: to track and map with the client their nervous system responses: to utilize vertebral alignment, boundary-making muscles of core and chest, and empowered movements like pushing away alongside softening and compassionate connection in our faces and voices to bring clients into their ventral vagal space and out of trauma time. I appreciate these concrete techniques, like practicing saying “no” in dorsal, sympathetic, and ventral vagal modes. I also appreciate the systemic approach of looking at interactional patterns, how others are likely to respond; for example, Attach/Cry for Help can be perceived as neediness by friends and feel like functionally intrusive behavior that is really an ineffective attempt to co-regulate. The self-of-the-therapist aspects highlighted are very valuable, such as self-awareness and self-care around “eating up” Please/Appease responses, idealization of the therapist and rescue fantasies of Attach/Cry for Help responses, and generally being able to stay attuned and in our own ventral vagal state through practicing with a colleague who can role play Collapse/Submit and offer insights as we try to co-regulate the person into ventral vagal. All great tips, insights, perspectives, and tools. Thank you very much for making this training and publicly publishing it in an accessible manner!
Thank you for such an amazing summary of this session.
I now have more recognition of my own and of clients state (dorsal, sympathetic or ventral), I’m going to practice staying anchored in my ventral, and role play the different states with a colleague to ground the learning. I’m learning how to recognise when to refer clients on to psychotherapy, (I’m a nutritional therapist), and also, I am getting alot more interested in working with trauma than with nutrition now, so I am considering retraining, but that’s a long journey!
I found this useful too and can imagine many clients I will introduce this too already.
It is packed with gems of Insights,Skills and subtleties particularly regarding Polyvagal Theory and its manifestations.
Active Hovering Attention to stay connected with the Nervous Systems of both the patient’s and your own as a therapist.
Frequently ‘ Checking In ‘ with my owns Emotional and Body States help me truly know ,rather becoming ‘Aware of” , as to what is going on with the patients Inner states.
I will need to Listen to it again and again.
with gratitude
Firstly, I am infinitely grateful for these sessions as they enhance and consolidate my learning. Thank you. I will use the more overt exploration into the client’s nervous system state. This attunement to their own state, naming it, understanding it and practicing responses from other states really offers the embodied awareness needed for shifts to occur.
Think about how to work with the please and appease response in a client with history of severe bullying over a number of years at school and who now has OCD (Focussed of fear of causing harm and upset) and social anxiety.
Thank you for delineating these additional adaptive responses, often seen with clients healing from complex trauma (where FFF is not sufficient to understand the pervasiveness of the symptoms). I also appreciate the importance of not “pathologizing” with DSM diagnoses, rather identifying the behaviors as survival strategies Grateful to work with a team of therapists looking for new ways to support our clients, share information and best trauma informed practices.
Yes I agree – a close friend has only recently reclaimed her sense of identity as a well resourced survivor after being, I’m now fairly sure, mis-diagnosed with BPD
Thank you again for a beautifully done, clearly articulated presentation of such great value to practitioners, clients and others within their circles of influence. This organization’s work has continued to show clear cut, cutting edge methods to increase effective support for trauma recovery. I also believe it is very important to support not “pathologizing” with DSM diagnoses that can be so misplaced and damaging for people. Gratitude for all you do.
I will model checking in with my own nervous system in order to help the other people learn permission to do that for themselves and see how to do it, how it can sound, what it can look like. You gave us another value-packed session. Thank you.
Yes agree, will be more intentional about tuning in to my nervous system when working with clients, and creating meta awareness with the client in the moment.
I am a Family Constellations Practitioner and what I am learning here has widen my knowledge to know when one of my Consultants might need additional professional support. Thank you!
I will use what I have learned here to better understand and react to those around me.
Thanks. That was really informative. It gives me another way to look at various client’s behaviors and to work with them from a more bottom up approach. I’m thinking about different clients who have each of these behaviors and I hope to think more carefully about how to approach each of them. I really appreciate that you made these gems available for free.
Thank you everyone! Beautifully done
Thank all this session helped me to gain better insight into the ‘Attach Cry/Cry for help’ protective system
Fantastic to have more awareness of attach/cry for help – I’ll hold boundaries with lots of warmth and understanding. My own nervous system will settle now that I know what’s going on with that!
This was excellent. Thank you so much for identifying these important additional responses which I have definitely seen in my practice. Your commitment to bringing the latest information to us all in such an accessible way is much appreciated.
I love the please and appease and how that comes into therapy – I will check in with clients when I feel “praised” and give them permission to disagree – thank you so much, this was excellent!
I learned the effective way to tune into my clients nervous system. I am going to watch this again this evening. I love this approach to meeting clients needs by meeting them where they are at.
Thank you for sharing. Important work on attachment cry for help that I will use today. I will hold on to the line “it’s not a cry for support, but a cry for survival.” I’d love to learn more about this when working with children clients who have experienced trauma and continue to live in dangerous/difficult/lonely settings.
I missed that part – cry for support/cry for survival – can you recall the situation presented? I have a client grasping so hard for something from her spouse – I want to suggest she “ease up a bit” and see if he’s more responsive – this may be a more appropriate response but I need to see how it fits to her situation. Thank you for your comment and in advance, for your engagement with me
I liked the idea of coming to a point in a therapy session where it was safe for the spouse to state (kindly) what her spouse could do to achieve the desired response (connection), then role play how it would look.
What I recall is Pat Ogden decribing a lesbian couple, Jen and Bianca. When adjusted Jen’s request body posture away from leaning in and needy to body leaning back and hand extended. Bianca was more inclined to meet her and join hands instead of feeling repelled and push away. Hope this helps. 🙂
It’s really helpful to link clinical observations of a client’s behaviour with what is happening in the nervous system in order to understand the defensive function of their behaviour.
Please appease : very helpfull
good explanation of the 3 ways of coping response of clients, very practical and clinical relevant
Thank you so much for providing this valuable information. It made me more aware of how trauma can show herself in my work with clients and made me a better clinician.
I love how you refer to trauma as herself. For me, your labelling helps call forth the caring, respectful and varied responses that “she” needs.